<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 02 Mar 2015, at 22:01, Steve Butler <<a href="mailto:kg7je@comcast.net" class="">kg7je@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/02/2015 12:22 PM, Joakim Bygdell
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:8E7628E3-EB5A-49C4-9667-8E7AF01B3C4B@gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
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<div class="">On 02 Mar 2015, at 5:51, Steve Butler <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kg7je@comcast.net" class="">kg7je@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 02/27/2015
10:54 PM, Joakim Bygdell wrote:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 27 Feb 2015, at 21:23,
Steve Butler <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kg7je@comcast.net" class="">kg7je@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Now, as an OC rec diver (soon to have access to the
100-130 depths) I would not want to enter the ascent
segments separate from spending time at a level on the
way up in order to indicate to ascend at best rate.
Take this scenario:<br class="">
<br class="">
Drop to 130 and hang there for 6 minutes (28% O2).<br class="">
Rise at 30'/m to 70 and hang there for 8 minutes on the
ledge.<br class="">
Ascend at 30'/m to 40 (no wait as it is a transition to
an upslope.<br class="">
Spend 5 minutes swimming the upslope to 15.<br class="">
Spend the standard 3 minute stop at 15.<br class="">
</blockquote>
As this is a multilevel dive you have to do some
calculation on your own, i.e transition times between the
levels.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">That is what I
was hoping to avoid. Especially as we entice more newly
certified OW and AOW divers to use Subsurface. Use of the
printed dive planner and the eRDP both assume the
transition time is included in the "level" time.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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</blockquote>
<br class="">
That is because they assume that each level is represented by a
square profile.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we take your example dive in reverse creating a dive your
students might be called upon to do.</div>
<div class="">Assuming you start from shore with a 7 min slow descent to
70’, spend 7 min @ 70’ followed by 5 min swim upslope to 15'.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">How do you plan such a dive on the tools you mentioned?</div>
<div class="">Do you ignore the time not spent @ 70’ or do you calculate
the average depth for those 12 min and use a square profile as a
representation?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you use subsurface in your classes, teach the students to
use it properly the way it was designed, </div>
<div class="">do not try to imitate how the eRDP works because subsurface
can do a lot more.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
In which case the check to drop to first depth (which combines the
first two lines) is really not that useful at best and possibly
misleading when looking at what was entered. It led to my losing
the 130 depth on a dive with a 70' ledge on the way up.<br class="">
<br class="">
Entered (with check box off)<br class="">
130 7<br class="">
70 2<br class="">
70 10<br class="">
<br class="">
Noticed the profile and saw that I'd failed to check the drop box.
So clicked that first box and got:<br class="">
70 9<br class="">
70 10<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>At which point you should have started over by entering 130 7 7 in the first line.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<br class="">
Now, if I enter the original list with that box already checked and
then uncheck it I get:<br class="">
130 2<br class="">
130 4<br class="">
70 2<br class="">
70 10<br class="">
<br class="">
Which is what I should have entered in the first place (though I
would have done 130 5 on the 2nd line).<br class="">
<br class="">
Which makes me think that if we're going to enforce entering all way
points, then the "drop to first depth" box really isn't that useful
and in my case, while I an learning the interface, caused me to lose
my initial depth line.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><div><br class=""></div><div>The way the “Drop to first depth” is designed is that it takes the data from line 2 and assumes that you drop like a stone to that depth.</div><div>If you look at how the plan looks like when it is initialised with the box unchecked, </div><div>the first line represents your descent and that is the one that gets discarded when you check the box.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>Maybe we need to clarify this in the manual a bit more.</div><div>* If you intend to use the “Drop to first depth” it should be checked before you start adding waypoints to your plan.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This is only useful if you are diving from a boat or a place with deep water close to shore.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If you start your dive from shore the box should be unchecked. Otherwise subsurface can’t do proper calculations for your long and shallow descent.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>* Each line in the planner table is the position of a waypoint and represents the end of a segment.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>Another thing you can do is to check the box for “Verbatim dive plan”.</div><div>Then there will be a description of you dive in plain text.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>For your example dive it looks like this:</div><div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><!--StartFragment--><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Transition to 130 ft in 1:58 min - runtime 1:58 on EAN26<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Stay at 130 ft for 5:02 min - runtime 7:00 on EAN26<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Transition to 70 ft in 2:00 min - runtime 9:00 on EAN26<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Stay at 70 ft for 10:00 min - runtime 19:00 on EAN26<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Transition to 0 ft in 4:09 min - runtime 23:09 on EAN26<!--EndFragment--></div></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you let the planner know which cylinder you are intending to use as well as your SAC </div><div>(which subsurface can calculate for you if you add the cylinder size, start and end pressures of the dives that you import) </div><div>you get this little treat at the bottom of the Dive plan details. </div><div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Assuming AL80.</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><!--StartFragment--><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Gas consumption:<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>55cuft/2031psi of EAN26 (5cuft/197psi in planned ascent)<!--EndFragment--></div></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:8E7628E3-EB5A-49C4-9667-8E7AF01B3C4B@gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
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Final Depth<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Duration<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Runtime<br class="">
130<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>2<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>2<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>descend<br class="">
130<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>6<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>8<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>level<br class="">
70<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>2<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>10<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ascend<br class="">
70<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>6<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>16<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>level<br class="">
15<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>5<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>21<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>swim
upslope<br class="">
15<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>3<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>24<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stop<br class="">
<br class="">
When you do that the ascent rates that you can set tin the
lower left cornet of the planner will not be used.<br class="">
The descent rate will be used only if you check “Drop to
first depth”. And in this case it will replace the first
two lines with this.<br class="">
<br class="">
130<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>8<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>8<br class="">
<br class="">
Containing both the descent time and the time spent at
130’.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">This is what
the OW rec diver expects to enter.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
See above.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
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auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Oh, and option to pick
between 15 or 20'. I noticed only 20' was set as the
last stop.<br class="">
</blockquote>
That is because the planner used 10’ increments in its
internal calculations.<br class="">
And the planner will only calculate what reamins on the
ascent after your last waypoint.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">OK. How about
another check box to "include 3 min safety stop at 15
feet" at the end of the dive. At least that is what is
being taught in PADI.</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That might not be to hard to implement.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
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auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
Compare how the planner works on your example vs. a blue
water ascent profile.<br class="">
The only thing entered into the planner is this line with
“Drop to first depth” checked.<br class="">
<br class="">
Final Depth<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Duration<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Runtime<br class="">
130<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;">
</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:
pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>13<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>13<br class="">
<br class="">
In this case the planner will tell you that the calculated
ascent from 130ft, using the defined ascent rates, will
take 7minutes.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Multilevel dives you have to define all waypoints for all
the levels, until the start of the ascent that contains
your safety stop.<br class="">
In the first example if the upslope didn’t exist your last
waypoint would be @ 70’ and the planner would calculate
the ascent time to the surface.<br class="">
Since you don’t have any deco obligation it will tell you
that you can ascend to the surface using the defined
ascent rates over a time of 4min.<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Would still
want the option to add 15' 3 min safe stop without having
to calculate the ascent times.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">/Jocke<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">--Steve</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">/Jocke</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">/Jocke</div>
</div>
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